Curse

clawofcrimson · Jun 14, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

I don't think people understand how bad of a change this is...

can you imagine how many skills will become useless (not to mention the whole armour system being annoying)... for instance

lets say you are playing through pve as an elementalist with armour of earth... and you warrior friend brings WYS...

..he uses WYS just before you cast Armour of earth... and your skill is useless. giving you only 1 or 2 +AL

this would be killing all the armour skills in casual play... and make WYS (among other skills) an annoyance to those who actually use the higher armour skills.

...making skills like these:

"Stand Your Ground!"
Shield of Deflection
Ward Against Elements
Resilient Weapon
Bladeturn Refrain

...kill the effectiveness of these skills on another character...

Avatar of Balthazar
Feigned Neutrality
Armor of Earth
Shield of Regeneration
Dolyak Signet

bhavv · Jun 14, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

..he uses WYS just before you cast Armour of earth... and your skill is useless. giving you only 1 or 2 +AL

Thats actually incorrect. You would then gain the full amount of armor from Armor of Earth, but nothing extra from WYS. A single spell can raise the AR level above the cap.

However, PVE players are still shafted by the nerf since tanking and damage reduction is now completely useless.

As I said before, Razah was dying constantly with over 130 ar in a noob island mision in HM. DoA and Elite missions in HM are gonna be so much fun now /not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

I don't think people understand how bad of a change this is...

Actually, its just the whining scrubs that only PVP and dont have a clue about anything in PVE that dont understand it. Anyone that plays HM PVE understands how bad a nerf this is.

clawofcrimson · Jun 14, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

hrmmm so I guess I misread... this means you benefit from the highest single armour skill that is 'on you' ???

bhavv · Jun 14, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

hrmmm so I guess I misread... this means you benefit from the highest single armour skill that is 'on you' ???

'We added a cap of +25 to the armor buff when stacking skills. A single skill can still bring the bonus over +25, but multiple skills with smaller bonuses will not do so. Armor bonuses from shields, weapons, insignias and inscriptions are not affected and still stack.'

BladeDVD · Jun 14, 2007, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by clawofcrimson

I don't think people understand how bad of a change this is...

can you imagine how many skills will become useless (not to mention the whole armour system being annoying)... for instance

lets say you are playing through pve as an elementalist with armour of earth... and you warrior friend brings WYS...

..he uses WYS just before you cast Armour of earth... and your skill is useless. giving you only 1 or 2 +AL

this would be killing all the armour skills in casual play... and make WYS (among other skills) an annoyance to those who actually use the higher armour skills.

...making skills like these:

"Stand Your Ground!"
Shield of Deflection
Ward Against Elements
Resilient Weapon
Bladeturn Refrain

...kill the effectiveness of these skills on another character...

Avatar of Balthazar
Feigned Neutrality
Armor of Earth
Shield of Regeneration
Dolyak Signet

I think this is not entirely accurate. As per Gaile's clarification here: http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...88#post4930188

Quote:

The way armor stacking works is it will take the highest armor buff. So in your example if someone hit you with piercing damage it would use Watch Yourself, and then if someone hit you with Bladeturn it would use Bladeturn. Both effects are still on you but it only uses the highest one or 25 points so a single effect can exceed the stack, but a combination of effects cannot.

So regardless of when either skill is activated, the highest active armor for the situation will be used.

So in your first example, armor of earth will be used rather than WYS.

I think this is likely to have more of an effect on farming and high end area builds. If it proves to be too much of a nerf there, they will probably tweak it more as they've pretty much already said they would regarding this upcoming update.

BladeDVD · Jun 14, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

However, PVE players are still shafted by the nerf since tanking and damage reduction is now completely useless.

As I said before, Razah was dying constantly with over 130 ar in a noob island mision in HM. DoA and Elite missions in HM are gonna be so much fun now /not.

What was killing Razah? Melee? Wouldn't a monk with a protection build be better then? Or a Necro or mesmer with anti-melee skills?

I'm using my Necro to get through HM and haven't had too much trouble yet. I usually go SS with Enfeebling Blood. The EB reduces their damage by 66% which helps a lot. I would go reckless haste, but I like bringing Insidious Parasite more.

I believe I did this mission with my SS Necro, a ZB protection monk and 2 SF eles. Maybe put myst. regen on one of your eles for more self healing?

Just started playing the paragon and rit, so don't have any recommendations for making them work better in HM.

Lastly, the smaller party size in the earlier missions kind of creates it's own challenge. I've read others saying they felt they were actually harder than the later missions because of the limits on your choices.

Curse You · Jun 14, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I'm very happy with the nerf. I tried an Obsidian tank one in FA an although yeah it's funny to watch people try to kill you and the luxon warriors can't even touch you, but, it's also easy to realize that is unfair to the rest ot the participants, the ai and the overall game. People will just have to adapt now to the reality that they will no longer be invincible and have to learn "skills" and "strategy" and "tactics" instead of just pushing buttons 1-2-3-tab.

Let me guess. You're "Obsidian tank" build uses Stoneflesh Aura and Mystic Regeneration right? Um yea, the only skill on your bar giving you +armour is Obsidian Flesh, which would still give the exact same bonus. I don't see how, at all, the cap of +25 armour would have any effect on the build you describe.

EDIT: Ok, you may be using Armor of Earth with Obsidian Flesh, but the +20 armor you miss out on (since it will use the higher buff from Armor of Earth), hardly makes a difference since you're still immune to spellcasting.

LifeInfusion · Jun 14, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

A +20 armour boost cuts damage in half

For the record, +40 is in half.

That is why Healing Signet is -40 Armor. It effectively doubles damage taken, which is why Watch Yourself + Dolyak Signet is necessary unless you use it out of battle (in PvE).

The main issue I have with the armor cap is it doesn't reward buffs that are highly conditional. Conviction for example, is almost a necessary thing on any Dervish unless they want to be flattened by enemy melee.

When enchantments are stripped away, the only things saving you are your innate armor. Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption are nice, but they don't last forever and they require your monk to have battlefield awareness. Trust me, Khim/Talkora using Protective Spirit as a heal is NOT battlefield awareness.

EDIT:
It would've made more sense to look at Team based buffs:
Shields Up! --> nerfed already, unless you chain it it is rather useless and it is onyl against piercing damage
Ward Against Elements --> AoE.
Watch Yourself --> main problem for PvP on paragons
Ward Against Harm --> elite, AoE
Stand Your Ground --> nonmoving allies only, non-maintainable unless multiple paragons (the crux of the problem)

NON Team based:
Defensive Stance / Disciplined Stance --> yeh right. These are easily broken with Wild Blow/Strike/Throw
Dolyak Signet --> useless in PvP.
Defy Pain --> no warrior would use this in PvP
Dryder's Defenses --> hello, duration?
Convert Hexes --> conditional as anything
Shield of Deflection --> enchantment removal/ short duration
Shield of regen --> screams need energy
Physical/Elemental Resistance --> wild Blow/Strike/Throw and it weakens you to other things
Armor of Earth --> slows you down
Obsidian Flesh --> as an elite, nobody uses it unless in RA or AB, which aren't really reasons to nerf all armor buffs
Armor of Mist--> enchantment
Armor of Frost--> enchantment, only against physical.
Frigid Armor --> enchantment, physical only
Feigned Neutrality --> pretty much needs Deadly Paradox, enchantment, cannot attack
Might was Vorizun --> +15 is like an insignia.
Protective was kaolai-->+24 nearly hits the cap
Resilient Weapon --> +24 neraly hits the cap, highly conditional
Tranquil was Tanasen --> elite, other than trappers, mantra of resolve is so much better
Bladeturn refrain --> slashing damage only
conviction --> requires enchantment, can be stopped with Wild Blow/Strike/Throw
Avatar of Balthazar --> elite, non maintainable

UNIVERSAL:
Fertile Season

Team based buffs as you can see, are basically limited to stand your ground, Watch Yourself. Everything else is only one ally only or self. I don't understand why it warrants nerfing the entirety of the armor skills.

Rusty Deth · Jun 15, 2007, 01:32 PM // 13:32

The more i think about this update the more I think its wrong.

Especailly when HM came around. There are certian areas in HM where you need to "kick it old school" and have your standard Obsidian tank, nukers, and monks. Even the devs said that.

The armor cap does help PvP, even though I'm more of a PvE player I can see how armor skills can be almost abusive in PvP play.

But since word of this change I been rattling the concept in my head and I see this being worse than the SR nerf.

But I understood the SR nerf. I knew SR was powerful, and I took advantage of it since before its change there was literally no way of stopping it.

But most of the armor skills have ways around them. I just hope this isn't permanant.

But my gut feeling says its gonna be : (

cthulhu reborn · Jun 15, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Well, Hard Mode will be very hard on tanks now cause the lvl 28-30 enemies will be able to really hurt you beyond what you can take, so tanking will fail. So people, you are required to use protective spirit and hope there is no enchantment removal ...

I can only see PvP reasons to do this anyway, so it's the same song being sung again. Whereas in PvE our spells do 10 damage against lvl 28 bosses and so we adapt to using hexes and conditions etc, the PvP community is apparently not capable of adapting to the DoA style tank, which we were required to invent to make it through there....All I can say is: HAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAAHAA!!!!!

milias · Jun 15, 2007, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Deth

I just hope this isn't permanant.

But my gut feeling says its gonna be : (

Yea, my gut feeling tells me the same thing. Oh well, what are you gonna do. I've been resigned to this fact a long time ago, probably the same reason why I hardly ever play anymore. All this changing around is really hard on the casual players like me, who don't have the time to switch around and tweak builds. We just want to pop in game and have some fun playing.

ShadowStorm · Jun 15, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

I don't remember who suggested this but someone out there had a really really good idea on how to fix this situation. This is not my idea.

Instead of nerfing armor across the board, Anet should implement an environmental effect in all PvP areas that prevents armor stacking. They said that this environment effect could be Balthazar decreeing fair play amoungst those trying to prove themselves. Call the effect "Spirit of Balthazar". Again, this effect would only affect PvP areas. It would not be found anywhere in PvE except certain zones related to Balthazar, like FoW, if at all.

Chicken Ftw · Jun 15, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Whereas in PvE our spells do 10 damage against lvl 28 bosses and so we adapt to using hexes and conditions etc, the PvP community is apparently not capable of adapting to the DoA style tank, which we were required to invent to make it through there....All I can say is: HAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAAHAA!!!!!

All I can say is: try some PvP before throwing out a random, biased, ignorant opinion. DoA tank? .... Try full, almost invincible paragon teams. This didn't come from the crappy RA tank E/Ds that don't do any damage. Nobody in the PvP community gives a shit about those, and most don't even care about RA/AB in general.

Also, I've never used a tanking build in HM, even in the RoT missions. PS/SoA put on a warrior generally work fine, and minions help soak up some damage. Even if you do get your enchants stripped, the 80 base AL of a warrior should be enough to keep him alive with his backline supporting him. The only place I ever used any defensive skills at all was in GoM, to tank Shiro while my party did the bonus. And that was a couple stances and GB, not +armor. I don't think it'll make as big a deal as everyone's making it out to be, although there might be some build changes to do.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 15, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

For the record, +40 is in half.

That is why Healing Signet is -40 Armor. It effectively doubles damage taken, which is why Watch Yourself + Dolyak Signet is necessary unless you use it out of battle (in PvE).

You Sir get a cookie! it is 40Al that doubles or halves damage ur quite correct

tiredness ftl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

People should use Mesmers more. Mesmers rock.

that’s one thing I do agree with you on, but that’s not the issue here is it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

How is a snare useless against kiting? Even if the Warrior shadow steps, if he's snared more than you, you can just walk away

Snares are not useless however the point is they are one of a few methods of slowing a warrior down, all of which can be removed by its team mates or self and make the snare last all of a second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

You will do exactly 30 damage on every Suit of Armor. Probably with a +1 or +2 discrepancy. That's your nominal Attack damage which is very low (0 Strength, 0 Swordsmanship).

The damage from Soldier's Strike (as with any Attack Skill) is Armor-ignoring damage.

This is NOT PHYSICAL DAMAGE. No sir.

Elementalists (and Ritualists) you ask? They do elemental damage. The damage their skills do IS ELEMENTAL DAMAGE this is not Armor-ignoring and can be reduced to 0 with high enough Armor.

The debate isn’t about the damage warriors do its about the you wanted to Buff the AL of Warriors higher than it already is. Elementalists are high damage dealers, they can take much damage but they can dish it out, warriors can give and take damage. Warriors with insane AL buffs are going to make non Hex attacks useless. If you don’t believe me use Elemental skills on a Dessert Wurm and tell the the “high” damage u do. Yes is a example of a PvE creature, however the point is you want to turn warriors into characters with that kinda armour and effectively take Eles and Rits out of the game.

Guild wars is designed to be dependant on builds, Build ele A defeats War b, War c beats ele a etc. Having insane AL stacking makes War d effectively unable to be defeated by ele a, ele e, ele f .... ele zz etc. Its unbalanced. In Gw all professions are capable of defeating all other professions with the right build. Giving characters (not just warriors) insanely defensive AL builds makes most classes totally usless against them with the Exception of Hex builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lagg

As for Heal Sig, I dunno, interrupt it? Ignorance?

You see a lot of Eles and Rits with interrupts don’t u

Nuclfus · Jun 15, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Now I don't farm with heavy earth armor builds, so that might imply I'm biased. But I'm pretty sure Hard Mode was never meant to be the sort of thing you could just whip up some unbeatable tank skillset for and solo or 2-man farm all on your own (which it is). Not to mention how many people I've heard talking about how "Hard Mode is still too easy and needs to be harder". Of course it's not hard if we're making it as easy and formulaic as possible. Having said that, I think some people are worried about this update because HM will now actually be hard for them.

My main problem with the people who think Anet is ruining PvE for balance issues in PvP is that their idea of balanced PvE seems to be these heavy armor stacking tanks being totally impervious to the lvl 28 mobs in HM. Hard Mode was Anet's way of bringing a new and greater challenge to truly experienced players. From a dev perspective, if people can still breeze through HM with a super-tanking solo build on a regular basis, obviously they're looking for a higher challenge to be had that isn't there yet. With a limit to how invincible they can be (via the armor cap), maybe they'll get that challenge. Maybe they'll even die occasionally. Or just maybe, they'll even join a party of other players.

Now yes, I expect that the cap will make some parts of the PvE experience far too challenging for most players. Many people who used to enjoy HM will discover that they now get slaughtered beyond reason with a limit on their armor, but I think that same limit will refresh some of the previously "too easy for them" parts of Normal Mode to a difficulty level that's probably well worth revisiting. Of course I could be wrong, but for now let's just wait and see.

Longasc · Jun 15, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

Fine then keep it in the PvP realm then. I am convinced you are so out of touch with the PvE community you make choices on PvP alone without regard to the PvE experience. Many would say thats a good thing until you realize that PvE makes up for 90% of your game community.

If this change goes through you will have a major revolt on your hands as the PvE community as a whole just won't tolerate it. I personally know of over 37 people who have left the game already never to return because their experience was ruined by PvP effects on the PvE aspects of the game.

I agree with that.

GW developed more and more into a PvE game. The additions to PvP since the very beginning were very minor, actually!

This change seems to have been ignored by the balancing department. They were so busy balancing Rits, Assassins and now Dervishes and most importantly Paragons and their Shouts... that they lost any eye for the PvE part of the game. Or worse, they simply do not care. But they should.

I do not think 90% are PvE players. ANet probably knows better, should know better... But I dare to say the so often bashed casual PvE scrubs are the huge majority of GW players!

Longasc · Jun 15, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Team based buffs as you can see, are basically limited to stand your ground, Watch Yourself. Everything else is only one ally only or self. I don't understand why it warrants nerfing the entirety of the armor skills.

Very good summary. It really boils down to the question why the combo of TWO shout skills requires ANet to scrap a whole game mechanic. What were they thinking???

Bad idea, especially because GW is already before its final expansion. No need to scare away people already, they will lose some followers in the year before GW2 even without such kamikaze nerfs.

imkey · Jun 15, 2007, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by BladeDVD

I would go reckless haste, but I like bringing Insidious Parasite more.

Yo, theres also a CAP on attack speed increases :P Reckless haste is useless in HM

CAPS ftw

.

imkey · Jun 15, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade

Guild wars is designed to be dependant on builds, Build ele A defeats War b, War c beats ele a etc. Having insane AL stacking makes War d effectively unable to be defeated by ele a, ele e, ele f .... ele zz etc. Its unbalanced. In Gw all professions are capable of defeating all other professions with the right build. Giving characters (not just warriors) insanely defensive AL builds makes most classes totally usless against them with the Exception of Hex builds.

You see a lot of Eles and Rits with interrupts don’t u

umm...Guild Wars is about group vs group balance. It was NEVER EVER balanced for 1v1 or Duels....Its not Mortal Kombat/Street Fighters....
There is nothing wrong with one prof completely owning another prof since balancing 1v1 isn't the fundamental goal.

Notice how there is no 1v1 pvp mode? Heros Battles is the closest thing... There is still a group vs group situation there.

MisterB · Jun 15, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by imkey

Yo, theres also a CAP on attack speed increases :P Reckless haste is useless in HM

CAPS ftw

.

Reckless Haste is not useless in Hard mode. It still causes foes to miss(52% @ 16 Curses), and it is very useful for that. It's essentially a Blurred Vision in the Curse line.

On topic, I think the armor cap is a hasty and inelegant solution to WY + SYG synergy, or possibly other passive defense builds like Hero battles. I don't really PvP anymore, but would a 25 armor cap to stacking party-wide armor bonuses work? Single target skills would still stack, and since an overly armored character in PvP generally lacks offense, couldn't such a character simply be ignored?

Put more simply, a cap of +25 armor would be applied to multiple skills that stack and affect the party(including Wards, why not?). Single skills that raise the bonus higher than 25 would be unaffected, as would skills that are target single ally/self. If this does not address the problem, please explain.